Don’t get me wrong: I certainly don’t wish for corporations to destroy the environment for their own benefit, but primarily because I believe that if the environment is to be exploited for industry the rewards of that should be shared equitably amongst the workers in a worker-owner cooperative structure, and the spoils of it should be shared equitably across mankind, and not only those alive today, but also those in the future, hence we need sustainability.
Insofar as actually wanting to preserve it for its own sake though - I think it’s meaningless, in a vacuum I would in fact prefer less biodiversity, especially when it comes to insects, and I would really like it if we could exterminate all species of fungi, mosses, lichen as well.
Where others see untouched ecosystems I see unused land that could be a nice city.
I’m an anarchist but I am firmly anti-degrowth, I would genuinely side with neolibs against anprims because they made a far better world even for all it’s flaws. Doesn’t help that neolibs have actual arguments and all anprims have is the “noble savage” and “appeal to nature” fallacies. Superficially I’m more on the side of soviet tech optimism if that makes sense.
Beyond the political, I don’t really have any affinity for it, there are people who say various nonsense like “green spaces improve our mental health” whereas I find them mostly depressing and kind of out of place.
I am okay with parks in cities as long as they’re empty and within reach of civilization, but green spaces like parks in cities aren’t nature, they’re a well curated almost entirely artificial human creation, an expressionist pastiche of green.
Actual nature is wildfires, cancer, floods, earthquakes, predation, parasitism, prions, wasps, itching, pain, burning, poisons, toxins, spores, fungi, spores, lichen, moss, mosquitoes, wasps, bacteria, sun overly bright, needing to pee, being itchy, negative emotions, reptiles, spiders, no amenities, dirt, dirty water (swamps), viruses, bacteria, thorns, stinging nettles, mites, ticks, lyssavirus, people turning to religion etc.
Flowers smell okay, but really air freshener smells better.
I find it all absolutely disgusting, and what’s even more disgusting is that these things can affect my unfortunate meat flesh prison, it could make me sick with some COVID-over9000 - another of mother nature’s little treats, and then ruin my plans for the day, or even my life.
Nature is pain and agony, and when it’s not trying to kill you, it’ll damn well do it’s best to make you uncomfortable 24/7, it makes me long for the eternal sanctity of steel in lieu of flesh, and the safety of concrete paved city roads lit under a warm orange glow of an artificial street lights. Some nice brutalist architecture, flat colours, sharp geometric shapes - urban and industrial environments feel like home.
As long as there isn’t crowds though - people are nature too and pretty disgusting as well, they are as irrational as any frightened animal and a vector for disease.
I never understood what the big deal was with staying inside during the pandemic. It’s one thing if you have a shit place and you have to house share or live with parents, if you rent a semi-modern apartment for yourself, I don’t see the issue. As long as you’re comfortable and have plenty of space, what else is there? All the things one could want are on the internet anyway.
I much prefer the internet tbh, here I have control, if there’s something I don’t like, I don’t have to ever see it again, but I can also engage with it freely without the interaction ever escaping my control, my agency is never impeded. The digital space is much more liberating.
Outside I can’t really use an adblocker, or a waspblocker, or a sporeblocker, or a people-blocker.
I’ve read a number of posts like this on Reddit before and to get ahead of the usual replies:
You have allergies!
No. I don’t have any as far as I know.
You just need to do shrooms
I have several times, though I kinda hated it, I much prefer acid myself, and it didn’t change my opinion in the slightest. Best place to trip is at home, I can’t imagine the panic attack I’d have tripping outside. Actually I can because I have. Would not do that again. At least it was in a business district and not in some ugly forest so I could duck into a Starbucks.
You hate animals
No, I’ve actually had pets. That said while I value the companionship I would prefer an artificial companion instead.
You just need to spend more time in nature
I’ve already spent way more time in nature than I’d ever want.
You should read about nature more
Yeah I have. I actually quite like reading about ancient creatures and whatnot, especially from the Cambrian period.
You’re just born after 2000!
Idk how that one is relevant but I’m from 1998.
But you’re part of nature
Yeah, I hate that. The bits about myself that I love are all that I managed in spite of it, not because of it. I will hate growing old as my meat prison rots and breaks down and I will hate having to confront mortality knowing there is so much to do.
You just haven’t visited [x]
I’ve visited the French Alps as a kid and it smelled like pig shit and made me exhausted, I’ve visited farms and it smelled like horseshit and was dirty, I’ve visited Times Square and it was the happiest memory I had as a kid. As an adult I’ve visited all up and down the UK and Russia (the Baikal and Ural) and idk about the nature there, it’s all just whatever and blends in.
At one time a field in the UK offered me peace when I needed it due to material struggles and I enjoyed it, (despite the unfortunate fact it was a reminder of wealth inequality because it was all privately owned by some aristocrat) or at least I thought I enjoyed it, now that I fixed it by improving my material circumstances and have no need for it.
EDIT: Because people cannot read, I’ve highlighted that I do not in fact think we should destroy mosses and lichen etc. and I am in fact aware that destroying any natural ecosystems has has serious negative cascading effects on everything else including human life and I do not wish for it because I’m not a moron
That’s why I said “in a vacuum”, as in -isolated from other factors. I’m glad this post has encouraged discussion but please just actually read it before engaging. The lack of reading comprehension on Lemmy is genuinely worrying.
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I like nature but see it in both ways. It can be creepy and scary and gross. But I don’t know, mostly I guess it’s the variety of visual stimuli and noises that I like. It’s all just so neat, the shapes of plants, shiny hummingbirds, how big it all is, moody fog in trees, finding a weird bug or plant you’ve never seen in your life, seeing things that are explicitly not made by humans, I find it comforting. Human made stuff is cool but also if that was all there was I think it would be pretty depressing, it’s nice that things exist outside of our making.
Good points! I agree tbh.
I suppose this qualifies as an unpopular opinion, but it’s some of the most cringeworthy pseudo-intellectual garbage I’ve ever read.
You view nature as useless and hostile, but you ignore its most basic undeniable benefits – food, oxygen production, climate regulation. You view cities as clean and efficient utopias, while ignoring that they’re plagued by crime, air pollution, industrial waste, disease outbreaks, noise, social isolation, and the urban heat island effect. Your preference for steel and concrete over living ecosystems doesn’t change the fact that those ecosystems keep you alive.
You identify as an anarchist (lol, of course you do) but you admire “Soviet tech optimism” which was based on central planning, state control and authoritarianism. You argue in favor of neoliberalism which is directly opposed to anarchism. You claim to be anti-degrowth and pro-sustainability, yet degrowth promotes sustainable technology. Your political viewpoints are a confused, incoherent mess and maybe someone more knowledgeable than me in that area will take the time to point out your other contradictory statements and misrepresentations.
You don’t consider what happens if most plant and animal species die, or its devastating effects on food production, the climate and human survival. None of that matters to you because your worldview doesn’t extend beyond your home and wifi network. Of course the fact that billions of people find comfort and purpose in nature is incomprehensible to someone like you whose life is devoid of meaning.
Your “meat flesh prison” comments are especially pathetic considering that all human experience (including your miserable urban-online existence) is mediated by biology. You can delude yourself into believing you’re above the disorder of the natural world, but you still rely on the very biological processes you claim to despise.
This is an embarrassingly bad take and you come across as someone incapable of forming real human connections. Most of the rest of us will be out embracing the chaos, beauty and unpredictability of the real world while you wither away, unhappy and unfulfilled, in the sterile prison you’ve created for yourself.
You identify as an anarchist (lol, of course you do) but you admire “Soviet tech optimism”
These are not in contradiction. Soviet tech optimism was a naive general societal belief in the power of technology to solve problems, but unlike American tech optimism it was about the problems of the proletariat and disconnected from the profit motive. I absolutely do not simp for the soviet union itself and have never stated as such. Generally speaking technology has solved a lot of problems, hence why I’m sympathetic towards the belief, as opposed to “degrowth” which is often tied in with Anarcho-Primitivism and anti-civ movements that have many problematic aspects when it comes to their distaste for technology in practice working to rob the disabled of independence.
You argue in favor of neoliberalism which is directly opposed to anarchism
I side with them as opposed to Anarcho-Primitivists and degrowth/anti-civ people.
They’re not my first choice because as you said - it’s not very left-wing or anarchist, but I genuinely believe that if these were the two options, I would side with neoliberals even though anprims are fellow anarchists because the former built a genuinely better world than what I think would result from the ideology of the latter.
It’s called having nuanced, clear positions.
yet degrowth promotes sustainable technology.
This isn’t correct.
My political viewpoints are sound, but you’re right - maybe someone more knowledgeable than you, which I imagine is a lot of people, (though given some recent elections in the world maybe not), could engage with this and actually have a reasonable discussion.
is mediated by biology.
Eh, I wouldn’t be able to have most of those experiences if not for technology. My eyes are meat and flesh, but without the silicone contact lenses on top, they’re as good as not being there really.
So in many ways, it’s mediated by technology also.
but you still rely on the very biological processes you claim to despise.
Never said I didn’t? I would prefer not to, hence why I said I’d long for sacred steel in lieu of flesh lol.
You don’t consider what happens if most plant and animal species die, or its devastating effects on food production, the climate and human survival.
Of course I do? I never said we should go out and destroy the environment now. Are you struggling to read, or something?
Most of the rest of us will be out embracing the chaos, beauty and unpredictability of the real world while you wither away, unhappy and unfulfilled, in the sterile prison you’ve created for yourself.
That’s some crazy projection. I’m happy and fulfilled in my sterile prison, thank you very much!
None of that matters to you because your worldview doesn’t extend beyond your home and wifi network. Of course the fact that billions of people find comfort and purpose in nature is incomprehensible to someone like you whose life is devoid of meaning.
More projection. My life is fucking bursting with meaning these days, every year is better than the last ever since COVID tbqh.
But yeah I actually made the post to see what the arguments were for liking nature, so maybe I could see it differently and enjoy it as well, but so far it seems the only commonality is a genuine inability to argue without resorting to ad-hominem and a shocking lack of reading comprehension.
I would really like it if we could exterminate all species of fungi, mosses, lichen as well.
Congrats - you just destroyed yeasts and useful molds (both are fungi).
Now we don’t have bread and most alcoholic beverages, skin is lacking natural protection, and yes - no more blue cheese.
In seriousness, this kind of opinion shows lack of understanding as to why those ecosystems are preserved in the first place. Not only are they directly responsible for producing things like oxygen, they prevent a lot of natural disasters (drought, cataclysmic hurricanes, land erosion, etc), and are able to naturally replenish their own resources, unlike agricultural land that either needs influx of matter from natural ecosystems, or requires finite resources extracted from Earth (for example, apatite).
As much as we think of ourselves as the conquerors of nature, in the long run we still cannot exist without it. We didn’t figure it out.
That’s why I said “in a vacuum” - as in, isolated from other factors including consequences. I do not in fact wish for ecosystems to be destroyed as I’m not an idiot.
I appreciate your input, but please just read the post before wasting time writing this out next time. Thank you.
I hate this opinion so I’ve upvoted you.
But I don’t know, from my unaccredited armchair sounds like control issues and agoraphobia.
I thought agoraphobia might be the case and it would make sense as I’m a minority and trusted polls show most of the nation wants my rights gone, but I don’t actually have any issues going outside and I don’t fear people, I don’t have issues even going out in nature, I just don’t like the latter same as I don’t like Chinese or Indian food, I will eat it if it’s all that’s available but I won’t enjoy it.
My mental health is actually pretty perfect these days.
Not everything is some mental illness, people just have different opinions and mine is well reasoned I’d like to think.
On the other hand “loving nature” is something I seldom see justified in any meaningful way, so I remain unconvinced that it is something to consider.
Do you have any logical reasons for why you disagree (and “hate”) my opinion?
I also prefer indoor plumbing and the absence of insects and I think nature is a bit of a horror show. What I find odd is your repeated assertion that
My mental health is actually pretty perfect these days.
That’s a really unpopular opinion and one I cannot relate to in the slightest. How does it feel?
It feels great. I have a girlfriend I met off dating apps right before enshittification took full force in OKC, while we have our problems, we do our best and we communicate (the most important thing). I have many friends, some of which go back to my childhood, others are new, just wish I had more time to see them.
I got a job I like (albeit lots of changes atm as my manager and cherished colleague of many years is leaving), and it pays OK, well above median wage in the UK at least, I work from home so I save time and money on commuting and I can interact as little or as much with coworkers as I actually want.
My ADHD meds are working well and I’m able to look after myself and perform tasks more or less on time when I need to do them. I had bottom surgery and discovered I’m pretty much free of gender dysphoria - an ever-present mental anguish I suffered prior. I’ve been through a lot, always uncertain future - I was on the edge of being deported for many years, but at least I have a permanent residence now, so I cherish the good things. Used to be flat broke, now got a bit of money, so when my gaming PC broke it didn’t even phase me, I always knew it as a luxury to not be using an ancient laptop.
When my parents found out I was trans, they disowned me, but as I was an only child and it was their dream, they still paid for my university overseas. I hated them for a long time because I was very much limited by what they would allow me to do, but now that I’m safely independent, as an adult I’m eternally grateful for the opportunities and love they gave me, even if I felt betrayed then and there, I’ve been doing my best to reach out and slowly get back in touch again, even if they’re not exactly trans-positive as one might expect of ex-soviet citizens, they’re not brainwashed Z vatniks, so there’s hope yet, and I do love them, and have many olive branches, they keep slapping away, and I will keep extending them.
I have many hobbies ranging from music production to electronics (like just simple circuits with Arduino type stuff), learning guitar and on to self-hosting stuff, I’ve even released some music on Spotify for fun, I read a lot about the world in my spare time from philosophy to history to economics to stratigraphy.
For the last few months I lived somewhat rurally in a shitty downstairs apartment that actually used to be great but it had a lot of issues not least of which extremely loud, extremely shitty neighbours, that made me feel down for a long time but I actually managed to move, took spending my savings on paying double rent for both flats at once but I moved into a nice spacious new build apartment building with good sound proofing in what the brits call a “new town”, it’s a nice city, very modern, much cycle infrastructure so I think I’ll take that up when I have money, and it’s population density is quite low in the centre so I really enjoy it, feels like a whole city just for me haha, and it’s never crowded at all so thank god!
It’s not that I don’t have problems, but none of them feel unsolvable as they once did, many times I often feel like I can do anything! Maybe even own a house one day!
Sorry, it’s all over the place, but I didn’t just want to say “feels great! Thanks sucker!” But actually explain why I’m great these days so that maybe someone somewhere finds some value in it.
I may come off as a sardonic asshole in my OP, and it is what I intended, but as the world is going to hell and I feel powerless to change it, I want nothing more than for people to find peace and happiness.
You write very well, and i encourage you to write more in the peace and happiness vein. I found your original.post interesting and amusing in the sardonic way but this comment is far more inspiring. I turned my life around once, immediately went the wrong way and now i’m trapped in my sofa again. I’m glad it’s working out for you and i encourage you to share that. It’s a great reminder of what is possible and people need that when the world is going to hell.
Thank you! I hope for the best for you. I hope you can turn it all around again and make your past self proud!
Whenever someone asks if I have a “logical” reason to disagree, it usually means according to their logic. Hate is logical. Disliking nature is logical. Liking nature is logical. Thinking a love of nature needs to be justified to you, on your terms, is not logical, so I’m not touching that one.
There is no “their” logic or “my” logic, not all opinions are equal and not all are valid - there is only actual logic, the system according to which things either make sense or are nonsense. That’s the system I would like people to use when justifying their viewpoints.
Uh huh.
No one is above biases and contradictory beliefs. However, even contradictory beliefs can individually be logical because logic is not the same thing as truth, and truth is relative.
Saying that I “hate” your opinion, but upvoted you, was acknowledging that it was, in fact, Unpopular. Not an invitation to go into whatever internet edgelord argument you’re trying here. Because I’ve read your beliefs, many of which are contradictory, and you apparently can’t take a joke - I don’t think any argument would be in good faith.
I’ll never understand why people downvote unpopular opinions on unpopular opinions. While being bonkers it’s written well
I never understood what the big deal was with staying inside during the pandemic. It’s one thing if you have a shit place and you have to house share or live with parents, if you rent a semi-modern apartment for yourself, I don’t see the issue. As long as you’re comfortable and have plenty of space, what else is there?
I agree with this part, yet:
Flowers smell okay, but really air freshener smells better.
No.
I’ve visited the French Alps as a kid and it smelled like pig shit
Definitely not.
Idk, flowers are just weak air freshener honestly. It’s not surprising that something that was created to smell good to us smells better to us than something that wasn’t meant to smell good at all.
Definitely not.
Guess we approached from different sides. Where we descended there was smell from a nearby pig farm. Almost swore off animal products then and there just because animals get pretty gross ngl.
Progress,” he said finally, “is like a herd of pigs. That’s how you should look at progress, that’s how you should judge it. Like a herd of pigs trotting around a farmyard. Numerous benefits derive from the fact of that herd’s existence. There’s pork knuckle. There’s sausage, there’s fatback, there are trotters in aspic. In a word, there are benefits! There’s no point turning your nose up at the shit everywhere.Andrzej Sapkowski, The Lady of the Lake (The Witcher #7)
That’s the spirit, lad! You found the perfect community.
No, I’ve actually had pets. That said while I value the companionship I would prefer an artificial companion instead.
I think this says everything that needs to be said about the position this opinion is coming from.
Does it? What’s the position? Ultimately my reason for posting this is to create a discussion so I’m curious to hear what you think.
I find it all absolutely disgusting, and what’s even more disgusting is that these things can affect my unfortunate meat flesh prison
Nature is pain and agony
I’ve visited the French Alps as a kid and it smelled like pig shit
I much prefer the internet tbh, here I have control
These statements are all super dysfunctional, imo. You seem to be trying to hide from the realities of the world.
Idk I’m not hiding from anything? Like i can’t really hide from these so-called realities, I just mitigate them as do we all by living in and perpetuating civilization by e.g. not littering thereby not fly-tipping and not attracting flies and other infestations.
What’s exactly “dysfunctional” about these statements? How can a statement even be “dysfunctional”?
Your reactions are very exaggerated, overly emotional and not actually grounded in reality. The French Alps don’t actually smell like pig shit.
I much prefer the internet tbh, here I have control, if there’s something I don’t like, I don’t have to ever see it again, but I can also engage with it freely without the interaction ever escaping my control
You type this but then say that you’re not hiding from anything? I’m sure psych textbooks could give you a name for this. Do you really not see a difference between “I don’t litter to avoid attracting flies” and “I don’t want to interact with any situations that I can’t completely control”?
Exaggerated? Sure. It’s the internet, it’s how we write, but even the very title is prefaced with a “kinda”.
I have absolutely no emotional involvement in this whatsoever, this is a pass time for me on the toilet. I really don’t care either way.
The key is “I don’t want” as in - not my preference, I still do nonetheless.
Crazy.
You probably have some sort of sociopathic leanings, which you aren’t acting on (this is good) A severe disconnect from valuing other lives. This is a type of neurodivergence I think. I’m the kind of person who will risk getting stung by a wasp that’s found her way in my home rather than take a life, so I’m the other extreme perhaps.
I think learning about ecology would be the most “helpful” route for you. I think a lot about the beauty of finding 13+ ant species in a square meter - what that indicates about complex intertwining systems of life, and how beautiful that is. There’s an enthralling relationship between a certain type of tree in Africa and ants that leads to the ants protecting the tree, while the tree creates a place for the ants to live… the more you learn the more you realize how complicated this is, and how humans can never possibly understand this enough to intervene without fucking things up.
I like the cut of your gib, but what courage it must’ve taken to side with neolibs in anything on Lemmy.
Have you read Caves of Steel?
The Isaac Asimov novel? That was very much a product of its time.
Did you have a traumatic experience in nature as a child?
No. I can’t say I’ve had any “trauma” at all. I grew up in a safe and stable home to loving parents. Nowadays I have a pretty good life and my mental health is pretty perfect, thanks for asking
I do not understand how you have gone through life without any traumatic experiences, that seems incredibly unlikely. Also, you are perhaps the only person on earth with perfect mental health these days.
I was thinking you had maybe had a bad experience in nature when you were young because your comment reminded me of a few people I’ve known. At least one of them had a series of bad camping experiences as a child that really defined how they view nature for the rest of their life. I think they had a parent who was really into nature and tried to force it onto them but it didn’t go well.No you misunderstood, I have had many traumatic experiences, I just have no trauma. Everything has been solved, processed or otherwise just didn’t leave a lasting impact.
You should Google Murray bookchin
I know Bookchin and I’ve skimmed some of his works, though I’m more familiar with Kropotkin and Graber, what’s your point?
wtf
