Both sides ARE bad. The trick is to use critical thinking and realize that one side is “stupid and misguided” bad and the other is “literal nazi, genocide against minorities, and also very stupid” bad.
Both sides are currently supporting genocide right now.
You might want to fix that.
That’s begging the question in the traditional sense of the term in formal logic. First of all you have to establish that it is in fact a genocide. While what the IDF is doing probably counts as war crimes, I have yet to see a convincing case that it’s genocide in a legal sense. We’ll see. I’m more than willing to change my mind in light of new evidence or a stronger argument than I have seen thus far.
Forcing a population off it’s land is legally genocide.
Sometimes but not always. There’s more to it in international law. That said, I realize that in arguing caution before leveling accusations of genocide, I am in the minority in this instance. My take is based on what I’ve read of expert legal opinion on the subject and not on my own evaluation of the IDF’s moral position.
The long and short of it is that there are matters of intent that have to be shown in order to have a case for genocide. Thus far, regardless of how we think about the IDF vis war-crimes, I have yet to see a convincing argument for genocide on a legal basis.
You may say that this is a distinction without a difference, and while I’m sympathetic to that idea, I still think it’s worthwhile to maintain these sharp legal definitions.
Ok so you don’t consider what they are doing genocidal actions.
Forcing people out of their homes, cutting off all electricity, food, and water while having them in a complete barricade and shutting down or extremely limiting aid, while destroying 80% of housing is Genocide.
If you feel the need to try and hide behind obfuscation then you do you but I can call a spade a spade.
Right because everyone on earth supports Israel and hates Palestine /s
Almost everyone with national level political power do. An open letter from House democrats to the White House urging them to work towards a ceasefire agreement had TWELVE signatures. Out of 212. And one of the 12 even tried to quietly remove her signature from it without the public noticing.
They may not hate Palestine, but they sure as hell don’t care enough about Palestinian lives to not support the fascist Israeli government and its genocide.
Israel has supreme power in the US government.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/894/text
Ain’t that the disgusting truth… 😮💨
You make a good point
Well the democratic president just sidestepped congressional reviews to give more tank shells to the Israelis but is struggling to provide Ukraine with materiel and shut down giving them fighter jets.
“The son of YOUR president took a single bribe and showed his ding dong on the internet, my president rapes women, lies about his finances, commits fraud and incites an insurrection! See both side are bad!”
Both sides are bad the same way that day-past-expiration milk and arsenic are both yucky
Great way of putting it. Also, your username made me almost spit out my coffee lmao
Such exquisite fartistry!
You probably should spit it out. I heard the creamer was expired.
And some of us just really want fresh healthy food. At least some of us will eat the day old food, but won’t be happy about that being the best choice. But because of polarization and group think, we’re just lumped in with the nazis. The internet is fun.
One side wants a chrisofascist dictatorship, the other wants a corporatocracy. VERY different types of totalitarian governments.
I find it interesting that the hamas Israel conflict has become such a political issue. Support of Israel in general, yeah religiously charged. But Hamas did start the attack and do a ton of fucked up stuff. SO many hostages including Americans. Israel is an oppressive government and from a distance seems systemically racist not just overly defensive. I just feel like this is a more nuanced issue
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I just think it’s worth noting that Hamas does call for the destruction of Israel. You can’t discount one set of lost lives for another. The only real victims here are non-Hamas Palestinians
Hunter has done a lot more worse than that. Nice on you picking and choosing his weakness offences.
Get off the internet and stop watching Fox News, it has rotted your brain.
Hunter isn’t even in a political office! He shouldn’t even be on anyone’s radar. And you sir/madam are part of the problem.
It doesn’t matter though, he’s not the president and is not involved in any politicalmatters. Sure, he should be investigated if he did something wrong, but why is that relevant?
Propagandistic bullshit.
Saying you can’t say “both sides suck” means we’re stuck with only two and must pick one.
Two is not the only option.
But it’s difficult to mobilize the bread eaters as they watch the circus.
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Both are bad though one is worse but both are shit
This is an ancient opinion. People have been complaining about America’s two party system for literal centuries.
I thought this was about Israel doing a genocide because people (especially Israeli people) can’t separate Hamas from Palestine.
But everyone seems to be taking it as a commentary on the two party system despite only one of these things being new to this year?
The ideological signifying here, though, is squarely situated within the language of American politics. All Lives Matter was a reactionary counter to Black Lives Matter, a distinctly American political movement. Similarly, “both sides suck” is something which has been repeated ad nauseam about American politics. As such, the meme suggests itself that it’s about American politics. At least that’s how I’m reading it. If the OP meant it to be about Israel and Palestine, I think they could have framed it better.
Also, the guy in the meme is a… checks notes… Canadian that goes around debating freshmen at American college campuses.
I prefer to refer to him as “failed comedian Stephen Crowder.”
‘Successful abuser’ works as well.
Palestine itself is a two party system. Hamas vs Fatah, the former controls the Gaza Strip, the latter controls the West Bank (specifically the areas not occupied by Israel)
George Washington warned Americans about the dangers of a two party system. That’s how far back it goes.
For me at least, it’s more of “conservatives are crazy, conspiracy-led, bigots but liberals are annoying.” and this of course only applies to the most outspoken of both sides.
I know plenty of people who vote republican, that are decent people (not antivax, not racist, not homophobic), but are either religious or gun nuts. Hell, I have a coworker that agrees with 95% of democratic policies but will never vote for them because they’ll “take his guns.” Do I think they’re dumb, sure. Do I think they’re evil, no?
Liberals I see like vegans. The core messaging is right, but the preachier you get, the more people are going to dislike you, even if they agree with you on principle. Even though I’ve voted democrat in every election, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes when someone told me I should stop using the word “marijuana” because it’s racist.
I don’t really want to hang out with qanon, racist types or people where I have to be careful of saying “mailman” instead of “mail carrier”. Obviously if I had to choose, it’d be the latter, but I don’t have to choose because 80% of people aren’t that politically motivated every second of their day.
What alternative is there to getting preachier? I don’t get in people’s faces, but I understand why people do it. For years, they’ve lightly suggested perhaps making things not terrible, and it’s let the far right get away with heinous shit.
Depends on context. If someone is saying “wow I hate all gays and hope they’re put in extermination camps” then sure I’d speak up and tell them they’re a piece of shit. If someone says “I think gays should have equal rights but personally I think it’s wrong” then I’d shrug it off. I think there’s a line between outright hatred and ignorance/cultural/religious-norms that people ignore too much. Qanon type people are too far gone, but the others I think could change, and immediately shutting them down as racists or homophobes doesn’t help sway them.
What’s the response if someone is making statements like “I think it’s important for everyone to get in politics. For instance, I have listened to Mr. Dobadian many times and think he’s an excellent candidate.” and the first search result for this fictitious person is a speech where he declares; “ALL PEOPLE WITH BROWN EYES NEED TO DROWN IN MUD WATER.”?
Shut down the latter person immediately as racist. But what about the first - the person advocating them? What’s the right way of disrupting their beliefs without “belittling” them?
“Hey, I listened to that Mr. Dobadian and he sounds crazy. I think you should be careful about listening to him.”
“I get that it sounds different for someone indoctrinated by media, but I do think you should give him a chance.”
“No, I mean, he literally said that schoolchildren needed to be blown up.”
“I don’t see value in disingenuously misrepresenting my candidate. I think you’re drawing your own extreme conclusions.”
“Okay, you know what, screw you, you’re just another racist.”
“Wow! Immediate shutdown much? Your kind are so intolerant!”Or, you could ignore these “secondary echos” of the extremist crazies - which is what lead to people in extremist positions spreading their message and getting elected.
So, which is it? Do you interface with them, and make your beliefs known, or not? Keep in mind, you literally won’t have all the time in the world to dismantle the lack of logic behind every one of them.
I mean, this made up person definitely sounds difficult to deal with. But this is getting into qanon territory basically, and I don’t think the vast majority of conservatives are like that. Plus I believe you can have open discussions and say “I disagree with that entirely” without adding “and you’re a bigot” at the end. It’s also easier in real life to tell if someone is genuinely hateful or their heart is in the right place but they’re a bit of a moron.
My whole gripe with overly-progressives is that they’ll completely write someone off as evil for not being progressive enough. It seems you’re assuming I’d never speak up against genuine racism, when originally my point was "it’s annoying when people tell you saying ‘marijuana’ or ‘mailman’ is racist and transphobic.
Plus I believe you can have open discussions and say “I disagree with that entirely” without adding “and you’re a bigot” at the end.
Man, you’d think so. Wouldn’t ya? But I haven’t heard that type of discourse in a long time. I know people who accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with literally every point they make of being bigots. Just today I was talking with a friend who accused a person with a blended family of being a racist. I see the same thing every single day online. Go find some 10 year old Reddit posts about politics and read the comments, the tone and the communication is completely different than it is now. It’s getting pretty bad out there.
but they’re a bit of a moron.
Wow! Hateful, much?
I’m kidding there, but maybe you see my point. Just like myself, you’ve set only a small set of options. Either people are evil, or they’re stupid, and no one likes being called either. It’s not plausible to completely avoid either label.
The point about marijuana is unfortunately lost on me. If it’s a reference to some extremist position, I’m afraid I don’t necessarily follow.
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I get why people want to choose the smaller evil but sometimes it’s necessary to point out all evils and head towards a stateless society.
But maybe that’s the difference between “both sides bad” and “two sides bad”
You’re not wrong that we should be able to critique everyone in government, but that’s not what people are taking issue with so it’s not really the problem. You’re kind of omitting the second half. “Both sides are the same, so it doesn’t make a difference what I do/I’ll just keep voting the way I have/I won’t vote because it doesn’t matter.”
I just don’t understand how “both sides are the same” could possibly hold any water after Roe was repealed. That’s evidence enough to the contrary, but people are far more concerned with sounding like they are “above the fray” and being perceived as big brain skeptics (even if they are uninformed on the issues) so they repeat it anyway. That or they are still voting MAGA and want to create a false equivalency.
- The meme doesn’t show that second half, 2. I show sympathy with that viewpoint in my first comment. Support the lesser evil but still call it an evil.
Yes I got what you were saying, but the problem is it’s obfuscating the issue. You are claiming that people who reject “both sides“ are rejecting critiques of the party they support. I am saying that is not true and it’s not even the core issue at hand - which this meme is directed at, mind you.
“Both sides aren’t the same” isn’t “I’m with the good guys.” It’s “the two parties are not doing the same things so stop pretending they are.” See: Roe.
I’m not too much into American politics so I guess I didn’t get the context
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It comes down to this, I know Biden is supporting killing innocent children in Palestine.
We can roll back policies that dumb fucker trump might try because people will still be alive.
We might need another trump presidency to show people that they need to do more than support genocide supporting candidates.
Maybe if it gets bad enough the rest of you will join us in not accepting shitty candidates as good enough.
They say you get less radical as you get older, but the older I get, the more I think it’s time to let the system burn and try again.
I’m sorry but “Trump will shake things up and get us to do something” is an absurd take and doesn’t give us the right to unleash what we know will happen to marginalized groups in this country. Especially when bringing him on isn’t going to stop what is going on in Israel and Palestine. If anything, it will make things worse.
Unless you think Trump is going to help innocents in Palestine, frankly, the argument doesn’t hold any water. And if you do believe that, well… I’m not really sure what to say.
Oh, it’s not something I am hoping for, just the potential of a silver lining.
I don’t think trump will help anyone.
What I do see is so many people who are worried about people’s rights, and then continue supporting someone who doesn’t support an innocent persons right to live.
It makes it really hard for me to feel for someone who is worried about not being able to dress or be called by the pronoun that the feel matches their gender, none of which is throwing trans/ace/ other minority under the bus.
I use it as an example to point out the hypocrisy.
I am sure it is horrible to people who have to deal with that, but being killed is irreversible.
I know that trans people are more likely to commit suicide and all that, just using this as a parallel.
If we are this worried about the potential harms created by a trump presidency, shouldn’t we hold Biden to a higher standard?
I’m sure this will rub people the wrong way so please feel free to ask for clarification if you actually want to have a discussion about the topic.
Just because I voted for Biden does not mean I don’t care about an innocent person’s - or any person’s for that matter - right to live. That is a cruel accusation to levy at someone.
You’re acting like we all have a concrete say in every issue of domestic and foreign policy. The reality is we all have a very small piece of the puzzle that allows us to move the needle in small ways. It’s glacial and frustrating and kind of the point, for better or for worse. The problem with your comment is you are equating voting against Trump, i.e. voting for the Democrats, with not caring about innocent people dying abroad. I think I don’t need to explain to you why that’s not really a fair take, anymore than I can say you hate the planet and want it to burn for ever getting on an airplane or in a car.
You could stand with me and say no to Biden and make them run a better candidate, you are choosing to allow it by not standing against, or at least by not supporting the standard he has laid.
I did not vote for Biden in the primary last time and I will not be voting for him in the primary this time. Do not presume to know how I am going to vote. We are clearly talking about the general election, however, and it is safe to assume it will be Biden vs. Trump at this stage.
2023 centrism in a nutshell. “I don’t like Biden so I vote to give Trump the dictatorship he so craves backed by the scotus he rigged his way into so we’ll never have a choice again”
I don’t understand how “both sides are the same” could possibly hold any water after roe was appealed.
Well it’s a good thing the electorate voted largely democratic after Trump so that could get fixed!
Both sides are bad, but one is absolutely evil.
Show me any decision of consequence in life that doesn’t have a downside. There are no perfect choices, just less bad ones. And in the 2024 US election there’s one choice that’s a lot worse than the other.
What annoys me is that we’re pretending the vote at this stage is still a binary one. It isn’t too late to have a Democratic primary.
It may not technically be too late, but everyone who has a say about it has nixed the idea.
A primary SHOULD happen, hopefully with someone much better than the Senator from MBNA winning it, but it’s not going to. The corrupt establishment protects their own.
Show me any decision of consequence in life that doesn’t have a downside.
Eat less meat?
Ok, that’s the downside, what was the decision?
Can’t we just vote in someone completely new for once.
We actually did that recently. His name was Donald Trump.
Completely new… seen partying with the existing cabal in 1990’s and also affiliated with the sex island pedophile ring that nobody ever got in trouble for.
Phew man what a savior of the country.
The way the US democracy works, attempting this would be too dangerous i.e. either all your fellow voters agree with you or you lose. How sure are you about winning this?
- Not a democracy… It’s a constitutional federal republic.
- If I vote like everyone else then there’s no point in voting at all, nothing will ever change either way.
- It’s not about being sure, it’s about not voting for the same people who we know are corrupt or incompetent.
I just want a different political party to get on the ballet at least once, at this point I don’t even care which one. I’m just sick and tired of this bullshit.
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A federal republic is a type of democracy. Often those that make this hard distinction are thinking republic vs direct democracy, which while accurate doesn’t capture the democracy most people are referring to when they say the US is a democracy. They mean the US is a modern liberal democracy, which it is, and has the constitutional federal republic style of government. I point this out not to nitpick, but because the right has used the argument that the US isn’t a democracy to justify eroding our rights.
sort of
But I do think there is a legitimate ACAB angle here, to slice it by power dynamics instead: All political leaders are bastards.
It’s not just one nation vs another, it’s also civilians vs the political elite. So while I agree it’s wrong to say “both sides are equally to blame”, there are other useful perspectives. I think.
It’s not just one nation vs another, it’s also civilians vs the political elite
Breaking it down further: it is the proletariat vs the dictatorship of capital (the mechanisms by which the capitalist class collectively rules) representing the interests of the capitalist class.
Depends on the specific conflict you’re talking about. Is this about American politics? Palestine? Ukraine?
For example I wouldn’t say that the dictatorship of capital is an especially pertinent aspect of the ruling elite when discussing the Palestine conflict, but it certainly is when discussing American politics.
I mean yeah, colonialism and capitalism are tied together at the hip, and Palestinians resisting the settler state of Israel is pretty directly related to resisting capitalist violence.
Throwing in the standard disclaimer of “my family was affected by the holocaust and I know several anti-zionist israelis who think Israel doesn’t have a right to exist” because some people get really weird about this opinion.
Everything is related to everything, so if course colonialism and by extension capitalism plays a part. And while capitalists are absolutely using both sides for their own gains, I don’t think there driving force of the conflict comes down to capital, but a conflict of non-economic ideologies.
But, it’s a very large conflict with a very long history, so not only am I not an expert, but the nature of the conflict may have many aspects that change over time.
I don’t think there driving force of the conflict comes down to capital, but a conflict of non-economic ideologies.
Well, you’re incorrect. Israel is a settler colonial venture, that is where the conflict comes from, not a difference in religious beliefs.
But, it’s a very large conflict with a very long history, so not only am I not an expert, but the nature of the conflict may have many aspects that change over time.
The region was really peaceful before the colonial project actually, I mean of course the ottoman empire wasn’t great but there wasn’t a lot of notable ethnic conflict in the region.
By “long history” I meant decades not centuries. Still long enough to be multigenerational.
Also there are more ideologies than just religion and economics, and conflict can be over a combination of them. Just because one party is colonial, doesn’t mean that all conflicts are necessarily going to be primarily over capital. That will of course be a part, but it’s also not like one day all the Jews in Europe were like “let’s go kick out all the people from this area because lolz”.
I’m trying to avoid talking about my personal beliefs here, but I’m definitely not of the opinion that both sides are equally bad.
I absolutely agree that colonialism is a huge (biggest?) factor though, and that goes all the way back to when European powers chose the land and kicked out the native people.
The way I see it in the face of climate change disaster literally neither side is going to save us. That is the most important thing to me right now.
It’s already too late, but it’s even later to reduce the impact.
Both sides is older than any of us. Enlightened centrism is a plague on intelligence
The problem isn’t that I want to be a centrist because I think it’s correct. It’s because this country is going to fucking shit with the deadlock on any kind of cooperation.
Constantly volleying for further extremes correct or not is why we can’t get a budget approved, why even with the ACA it got stripped to fucking Bits when the next presidency swung around.
The reality is you want to be bringing in more voters by being more palatable and not pushing them away by drawing a line in the sand for EVERY single issue. No I’m a better liberal! No I’m a better liberal look at me virtue signal.
It’s fucking exhausting.
To all the people who want to vote third party or withhold their vote, please tell me, when had that ever effected change?
This idea that if you hold your vote or vote 3rd party you’re gonna teach the establishment a lesson is laughable. No, the system will go on without you and you’ll just have even less of a voice/decision in the direction of our country.
There is a reason certain people work so hard to tell you your vote doesn’t matter. You’re all falling for it.
Edit: If you don’t like the candidates you have to choose from then go out and vote in the primaries because there’s about a 90% chance you’re not doing that.
1854, with the generous assumption that the threat of party replacement hasn’t influenced policy positions whatsoever.
So in today’s elections, one might point to Democrats who are increasingly opposed to FPTP.
