Or you’re just not that familiar with Capitalist and Communist history.
Killed by the British East India company famines in India and Bengal: 10 - 15 million (the company exported ALL the grain, even the grain farmers were paid with and living off. Gotta get those profits!).
Killed by the Libertarian Congo Free State under King Leopald: 10 - 15 million (but the rubber business boomed).
That’s 20 million to 30 million dead from Capitalism right there.
Killed in the USSR Gulag system? 1.5 - 2 million. Most people survived the Gulag system (18 million went in, the majority walked out alive).
Outside of that Communism had a lot of undesired and unintended famines largely contributed to by one conman scientist fabricating results to keep his job:
Capitalism has in all likelihood intentionally killed waaay more people than Communism (just by the numbers)… And if you know the history, this becomes more obvious. This comment doesn’t even cover the many wars by Capitalist nations pushed and carried out in the name of profit.
Killed in the USSR Gulag system? 1.5 - 2 million. Most people survived the Gulag system (18 million went in, the majority walked out alive).
Others doing bad things, does not make you doing bad things any better. Do you really want to defend “only” around 2 million people dying, and 18 million more ending up in camps?!
Well, then we get to the definitions of communism, because neither Soviet Union nor China under CCP have been marxist communists. “True communist state” would be owned by people, not people subjugated to become possessions of a dictator too. Capitalism fucking sucks, but I will rather take the social democratic system I live under now, than a dictator throwing innocent people into camps. (And that applies to the USA too, with their dollar-store government doing their best nazi impression right now.)
Now, if only we could stop being such meek sheep, we could perhaps figure out a system that is not based on exploitation. But that would be not like Capitalist societies, nor anything like Soviet Union or China under CCP.
I got to it, because you compared horrible systems, and claimed one to be communist, while it is not. Soviet Union and China under CCP have been, just slightly differently spiced versions of the same exploitation, that is behind capitalism too.
No I didn’t. Where do I claim to be doing a comparison of horrible systems? Where do I claim one is communist and one is not. I didn’t even originate the thread we’re on. I certainly didn’t say anything about spiced versions of each other. I didn’t come up with these terms.
Capitalism has in all likelihood intentionally killed waaay more people than Communism
we live under the deadlier of the two systems
What are you talking about? You started with comparing capitalism and “communism”, two horrible systems with large kill counts (which you are even using for comparing them). And I am denying the other even was communism, since Soviet Union and China under CCP have both been more close to dictatorships, than the people actually owning their state. They have been as communist as Nazi Germany was socialist - only in name.
And I am the one saying it is pointless, which one is worse, since they are just slightly different flavors of exploitation. It is like arguing about which rotten apple is more rotten, instead of trying to pick fresh ones.
Cause you said they all devolved into dictatorships and that is factually inaccurate.
Every example in the OP is from a revolution that occurred in response to an existing non-democratic, capitalist, authoritarian state.
So the revolutions took over states that were in fact not democratic. This is not a moral judgement but a clarification of fact.
Another clarification is the notion of “Have Always”
Do you think those listed are the only examples?
Care to explain the Paris Commune? Allende in Chile? The socialist republic in Spain? Arbenz in Guatemala? Lumumba and the pan african movement in Congo? Nicaragua? The PKI and Sukarmo in Indonesia? And then in East Timor? Just to name a few
It is not a whataboutism to challenge your assertions of factual ignorance.
Millions killed in purges and policy created in cults of personality.
Yeah, need to make a whole identity sh*tting on imperfect democracies while touting systems that have always devolved into dictatorships.
Or you’re just not that familiar with Capitalist and Communist history.
Killed by the British East India company famines in India and Bengal: 10 - 15 million (the company exported ALL the grain, even the grain farmers were paid with and living off. Gotta get those profits!).
Killed by the Libertarian Congo Free State under King Leopald: 10 - 15 million (but the rubber business boomed).
That’s 20 million to 30 million dead from Capitalism right there.
Killed in the USSR Gulag system? 1.5 - 2 million. Most people survived the Gulag system (18 million went in, the majority walked out alive).
Outside of that Communism had a lot of undesired and unintended famines largely contributed to by one conman scientist fabricating results to keep his job:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko#Consequences_of_Lysenko’s_views
Capitalism has in all likelihood intentionally killed waaay more people than Communism (just by the numbers)… And if you know the history, this becomes more obvious. This comment doesn’t even cover the many wars by Capitalist nations pushed and carried out in the name of profit.
Others doing bad things, does not make you doing bad things any better. Do you really want to defend “only” around 2 million people dying, and 18 million more ending up in camps?!
It’s not really about that … I mean, we don’t live under communism, we live under the deadlier of the two systems.
Well, then we get to the definitions of communism, because neither Soviet Union nor China under CCP have been marxist communists. “True communist state” would be owned by people, not people subjugated to become possessions of a dictator too. Capitalism fucking sucks, but I will rather take the social democratic system I live under now, than a dictator throwing innocent people into camps. (And that applies to the USA too, with their dollar-store government doing their best nazi impression right now.)
Now, if only we could stop being such meek sheep, we could perhaps figure out a system that is not based on exploitation. But that would be not like Capitalist societies, nor anything like Soviet Union or China under CCP.
Sounds like you got to that, because you wanted to rant about it out of nowhere. I don’t really get why you’re doing it me. But whatever.
I got to it, because you compared horrible systems, and claimed one to be communist, while it is not. Soviet Union and China under CCP have been, just slightly differently spiced versions of the same exploitation, that is behind capitalism too.
No I didn’t. Where do I claim to be doing a comparison of horrible systems? Where do I claim one is communist and one is not. I didn’t even originate the thread we’re on. I certainly didn’t say anything about spiced versions of each other. I didn’t come up with these terms.
What are you talking about? You started with comparing capitalism and “communism”, two horrible systems with large kill counts (which you are even using for comparing them). And I am denying the other even was communism, since Soviet Union and China under CCP have both been more close to dictatorships, than the people actually owning their state. They have been as communist as Nazi Germany was socialist - only in name.
And I am the one saying it is pointless, which one is worse, since they are just slightly different flavors of exploitation. It is like arguing about which rotten apple is more rotten, instead of trying to pick fresh ones.
Devolved?
Which of the listed nations on the bottom were revolutions that overthrew functioning free and fair democratic systems?
Why the f does that matter? They existed as they did, killed multiple millons, so don’t butwhatabout and redirect.
Cause you said they all devolved into dictatorships and that is factually inaccurate.
Every example in the OP is from a revolution that occurred in response to an existing non-democratic, capitalist, authoritarian state.
So the revolutions took over states that were in fact not democratic. This is not a moral judgement but a clarification of fact.
Another clarification is the notion of “Have Always”
Do you think those listed are the only examples?
Care to explain the Paris Commune? Allende in Chile? The socialist republic in Spain? Arbenz in Guatemala? Lumumba and the pan african movement in Congo? Nicaragua? The PKI and Sukarmo in Indonesia? And then in East Timor? Just to name a few
It is not a whataboutism to challenge your assertions of factual ignorance.